Jim Macdonald has left a new comment on your post "Yellowstone and class":
Hey there,
Thanks for the kind words and the comment.
On foreign workers, I say in the other piece on the company towns of Greater Yellowstone that they too represent a special class - typically workers who are not poor in their own country. Or else, how do you come up with the initial $2,000? College students, professional types, etc. I'm sure I came to Yellowstone originally poorer than most of the foreign workers.
But, the class distinctions and hardships relative to society are the same; one of the points I think I was making in some of these essays was that it's even ironic that people who are relatively privileged get thrust into the lower rungs of the class system as it exists in Yellowstone. It must be doubly so for a foreign worker from a college or professional background suddenly thrust into a position in the United States where so many are xenophobic, so many have stereotypes of immigrant workers, and where these people have been lied to by their employers and put into the unenviable place of having to work extra jobs just to make it back or to earn the money for their own studies or their families.
Anyhow, it's very nice to see someone thinking about these things in terms of her own experience. And, having done the grad school thing, taught classes, dealt with the various family and societal issues faced by students, it was all the more refreshing to read things from experience I can relate with.
If there was something I didn't feel entirely comfortable with in your essay was your words hedging a bit on your support of unions. I definitely agree that the big unions are largely corrupt or out of touch with their workers, but the union concept is essential to resistance against classism in society. I guess I take a wobbly approach - where workers themselves are the direct participants in their union leadership - but that's the exception unfortunately rather than the norm.
Take care and thanks again. Be sure to pop me an email if there's something you'd like me to read.
Posted by Jim Macdonald to Jim's Eclectic World at 8/4/08 2:25 PM __________________________________________________
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Monday, August 4, 2008
[Jim's Eclectic World] New comment on Yellowstone and class.
American Puzzle has left a new comment on your post "Yellowstone and class":
Jim - Thank you for finding me and commenting. This piece is compelling as well, and thoughtful. Although, I have stayed in Old Faithful Inn - once - for a few days. :) You also clearly have much more experience than I with working in the park, and you have detailed the class issue very well. One thing, I read the comment by Kurt and your response - the foreign students I worked with in 2005 were just as "entitled" as their American college student brethren - saw it time and again in their attitudes about work. So I don't know that I can fully agree with that assessment...however, I love your writing. I'm adding your blog as a link under my Education and Community tag and look forward to reading more! ;)
Posted by American Puzzle to Jim's Eclectic World at 8/4/08 9:09 AM __________________________________________________
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Jim - Thank you for finding me and commenting. This piece is compelling as well, and thoughtful. Although, I have stayed in Old Faithful Inn - once - for a few days. :) You also clearly have much more experience than I with working in the park, and you have detailed the class issue very well. One thing, I read the comment by Kurt and your response - the foreign students I worked with in 2005 were just as "entitled" as their American college student brethren - saw it time and again in their attitudes about work. So I don't know that I can fully agree with that assessment...however, I love your writing. I'm adding your blog as a link under my Education and Community tag and look forward to reading more! ;)
Posted by American Puzzle to Jim's Eclectic World at 8/4/08 9:09 AM __________________________________________________
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Tuesday, July 1, 2008
[Jim's Eclectic World] New comment on Re-mythologizing Yellowstone: Part 1 - True and fa....
Jim Macdonald has left a new comment on your post "Re-mythologizing Yellowstone: Part 1 - True and fa...":
First of all, you are referring to a comment in the Yellowstone Newspaper, September 2007, just for the sake of clarity, which points people back to this essay.
And, it's accurate. That there was a real Ranger Smith in your blog isn't relevant to my point and nor is your lacking a specific reference to Jellystone. You were referring to the myth in the way you talk about Yogi. It's an appropriate allusion; especially as I said "a bit of those myths," and especially the particular personification of bears in the way you did in your blog.
That's all I said; that's all I meant. And, yes, I would challenge us to consider carefully the way you we draw upon these myths. We all do so in many ways, in ways we are not even conscious of - the point isn't to avoid myth, but to be critical about the use.
And, if you read my essays carefully, I'm very pro myth; I'm just not in favor of that particular one in terms of Yellowstone or the bears within it.
I'm sorry you were offended that I made the reference, but I think you are protesting too much.
Posted by Jim Macdonald to Jim's Eclectic World at 7/2/08 1:16 AM __________________________________________________
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First of all, you are referring to a comment in the Yellowstone Newspaper, September 2007, just for the sake of clarity, which points people back to this essay.
And, it's accurate. That there was a real Ranger Smith in your blog isn't relevant to my point and nor is your lacking a specific reference to Jellystone. You were referring to the myth in the way you talk about Yogi. It's an appropriate allusion; especially as I said "a bit of those myths," and especially the particular personification of bears in the way you did in your blog.
That's all I said; that's all I meant. And, yes, I would challenge us to consider carefully the way you we draw upon these myths. We all do so in many ways, in ways we are not even conscious of - the point isn't to avoid myth, but to be critical about the use.
And, if you read my essays carefully, I'm very pro myth; I'm just not in favor of that particular one in terms of Yellowstone or the bears within it.
I'm sorry you were offended that I made the reference, but I think you are protesting too much.
Posted by Jim Macdonald to Jim's Eclectic World at 7/2/08 1:16 AM __________________________________________________
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[Jim's Eclectic World] New comment on Re-mythologizing Yellowstone: Part 1 - True and fa....
DadsFirstBorn has left a new comment on your post "Re-mythologizing Yellowstone: Part 1 - True and fa...":
While you feel my posting contained "myths" you are sorely mistaken. First... there really was a "Ranger Smith" to whom I referred to in my blog - and, he is still alive today (lives near Seattle and grew up in Powell)... I never mentioned "Jellystone" whether I played against peoples' memories of the cartoon or not... and I am offended you included my blog as a part of your "myth."... I kind of think you never read it...
Posted by DadsFirstBorn to Jim's Eclectic World at 7/2/08 1:00 AM __________________________________________________
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While you feel my posting contained "myths" you are sorely mistaken. First... there really was a "Ranger Smith" to whom I referred to in my blog - and, he is still alive today (lives near Seattle and grew up in Powell)... I never mentioned "Jellystone" whether I played against peoples' memories of the cartoon or not... and I am offended you included my blog as a part of your "myth."... I kind of think you never read it...
Posted by DadsFirstBorn to Jim's Eclectic World at 7/2/08 1:00 AM __________________________________________________
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Friday, June 20, 2008
[Jim's Eclectic World] New comment on Newspaper article misrepresents Buffalo Allies pos....
Jim Macdonald has left a new comment on your post "Newspaper article misrepresents Buffalo Allies pos...":
Well, this is an interesting "CYA" response, now that everyone knows Corrientes aren't the cause.
The article doesn't prove that Corrientes aren't the cause; the article simply asserts the claims of the livestock industry. I frankly couldn't give a crap whether Corrientes were involved. The point of bringing them up was to wonder out loud why other potential causes aren't being investigated and why bison are always such an easy scapegoat for this "problem" of brucellosis.
Poor "Buffalo Allies of Bozeman" - another group who doesn't have a clue. How do you know bison didn't cause this? - the investigation isn't complete!
Bison could not have been the cause because there are no bison in the Paradise Valley and have not been bison in the Paradise Valley. Five bison almost made it into Tim Miner Basin this winter and were promptly shot before they could make it to a wildlife friendly rancher and the Dome Mountain wildlife area. All the buffalo were being killed by the National Park Service way south in the Gardiner Basin.
Are you aware of the 1983 US Animal Health Association report showing free ranging bison infecting cattle with brucellosis? I doubt it.
As has been noted by several others, this is not the same thing as the claim that wild bison have not transmitted brucellosis. But, if you want me to claim that it's not possible, I'm not going to make that claim. There are others, like Robert Hoskins, who have taken a stronger view than I would and would even go so far as to say that elk that are wild (not the feedlot elk) can't even transmit the disease. Personally, I would never go that far because I don't think that argument matters. Brucellosis is not at all what the issue is about. The cost of brucellosis is essentially meaningless compared to the cost of prevention against it. But, if you really want to see my radical stripes, I personally (this is NOT the view of my group) don't believe that anyone has the right to cattle ranch anywhere. As I'm sure you've noticed – since you are big on research and have researched me and what I believe before posting on my site – I don't believe in capitalism – certainly not using animals as capital.
One anomaly that has to be explained, though, if we are to take the views who take the Hoskins view is why it is that cattle and bison in Grand Teton, who graze on the same land inside the park – where bison have brucellosis – have never transmitted the disease.
Do your research. Learn the real story. The GYA bison are up to 50% seropositive. Don't believe the "exposure" malarky to explain that. The antibodies are antigen driven - meaning there must be bacteria present in the animal's body to cause a positive blood test. A positive animal is NOT immune - quite the contrary!The brucella antibody half-life is about 3 weeks - meaning if the animal was able to fight off the disease (which a few do), they would be test negative very quickly. If they test positive, they are likely infecte
Bison and elk swap the disease back and forth and it spills over into cattle when the populations get to record levels, as they were earlier this year.
Elk were not at record levels; their levels have been much lower in recent years due to wolf predation and drought. Buffalo were almost at record levels; however, they were not permitted anywhere near Pray because they were killed. So, while that doesn't disprove that elk were involved (I happen to think they probably were the cause, something that would not make my friends in the Gallatin Wildlife Association happy), it does make the point you are making here sketchy. There weren't bison anywhere near the area, there weren't elk at record levels.
But, in the end, my attitude is so what? Is brucellosis a reason to provide artificial boundaries to wildlife – whether they are elk or buffalo? What is so important about a brucellosis free status? And, if it's that important, then you'd be better off spending your time having APHIS change outdated penalties for brucellosis. As we've been told, the meat supply is safe no matter what. If livestock interests are so important to protect, then it's up to them to keep their cattle separate from wildlife; if it's so important, then this industry should change it's rules.
Or, is this about grass? Isn't that the real story? Why are we running from the values discussion and engaged in this smokescreen about brucellosis year after year?
The incubation period is perfect for it to show up now. Learn about the disease before you try to take a stance. I'm a vet - been dealing with this for years. These outbreaks were predictable, when you know the epidemiology of the disease. Too bad all those on the chats don't take the time to learn before they express opinions.
You may be a vet, but this isn't a question of science so much as it is a question of values assumptions masking itself in the guise of scientific discourse. Brucellosis is not the issue.
Posted by Jim Macdonald to Jim's Eclectic World at 6/20/08 11:04 AM __________________________________________________
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Well, this is an interesting "CYA" response, now that everyone knows Corrientes aren't the cause.
The article doesn't prove that Corrientes aren't the cause; the article simply asserts the claims of the livestock industry. I frankly couldn't give a crap whether Corrientes were involved. The point of bringing them up was to wonder out loud why other potential causes aren't being investigated and why bison are always such an easy scapegoat for this "problem" of brucellosis.
Poor "Buffalo Allies of Bozeman" - another group who doesn't have a clue. How do you know bison didn't cause this? - the investigation isn't complete!
Bison could not have been the cause because there are no bison in the Paradise Valley and have not been bison in the Paradise Valley. Five bison almost made it into Tim Miner Basin this winter and were promptly shot before they could make it to a wildlife friendly rancher and the Dome Mountain wildlife area. All the buffalo were being killed by the National Park Service way south in the Gardiner Basin.
Are you aware of the 1983 US Animal Health Association report showing free ranging bison infecting cattle with brucellosis? I doubt it.
As has been noted by several others, this is not the same thing as the claim that wild bison have not transmitted brucellosis. But, if you want me to claim that it's not possible, I'm not going to make that claim. There are others, like Robert Hoskins, who have taken a stronger view than I would and would even go so far as to say that elk that are wild (not the feedlot elk) can't even transmit the disease. Personally, I would never go that far because I don't think that argument matters. Brucellosis is not at all what the issue is about. The cost of brucellosis is essentially meaningless compared to the cost of prevention against it. But, if you really want to see my radical stripes, I personally (this is NOT the view of my group) don't believe that anyone has the right to cattle ranch anywhere. As I'm sure you've noticed – since you are big on research and have researched me and what I believe before posting on my site – I don't believe in capitalism – certainly not using animals as capital.
One anomaly that has to be explained, though, if we are to take the views who take the Hoskins view is why it is that cattle and bison in Grand Teton, who graze on the same land inside the park – where bison have brucellosis – have never transmitted the disease.
Do your research. Learn the real story. The GYA bison are up to 50% seropositive. Don't believe the "exposure" malarky to explain that. The antibodies are antigen driven - meaning there must be bacteria present in the animal's body to cause a positive blood test. A positive animal is NOT immune - quite the contrary!The brucella antibody half-life is about 3 weeks - meaning if the animal was able to fight off the disease (which a few do), they would be test negative very quickly. If they test positive, they are likely infecte
Bison and elk swap the disease back and forth and it spills over into cattle when the populations get to record levels, as they were earlier this year.
Elk were not at record levels; their levels have been much lower in recent years due to wolf predation and drought. Buffalo were almost at record levels; however, they were not permitted anywhere near Pray because they were killed. So, while that doesn't disprove that elk were involved (I happen to think they probably were the cause, something that would not make my friends in the Gallatin Wildlife Association happy), it does make the point you are making here sketchy. There weren't bison anywhere near the area, there weren't elk at record levels.
But, in the end, my attitude is so what? Is brucellosis a reason to provide artificial boundaries to wildlife – whether they are elk or buffalo? What is so important about a brucellosis free status? And, if it's that important, then you'd be better off spending your time having APHIS change outdated penalties for brucellosis. As we've been told, the meat supply is safe no matter what. If livestock interests are so important to protect, then it's up to them to keep their cattle separate from wildlife; if it's so important, then this industry should change it's rules.
Or, is this about grass? Isn't that the real story? Why are we running from the values discussion and engaged in this smokescreen about brucellosis year after year?
The incubation period is perfect for it to show up now. Learn about the disease before you try to take a stance. I'm a vet - been dealing with this for years. These outbreaks were predictable, when you know the epidemiology of the disease. Too bad all those on the chats don't take the time to learn before they express opinions.
You may be a vet, but this isn't a question of science so much as it is a question of values assumptions masking itself in the guise of scientific discourse. Brucellosis is not the issue.
Posted by Jim Macdonald to Jim's Eclectic World at 6/20/08 11:04 AM __________________________________________________
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[Jim's Eclectic World] New comment on Newspaper article misrepresents Buffalo Allies pos....
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Newspaper article misrepresents Buffalo Allies pos...":
Well, this is an interesting "CYA" response, now that everyone knows Corrientes aren't the cause. Poor "Buffalo Allies of Bozeman" - another group who doesn't have a clue. How do you know bison didn't cause this? - the investigation isn't complete! Are you aware of the 1983 US Animal Health Association report showing free ranging bison infecting cattle with brucellosis? I doubt it. Do your research. Learn the real story. The GYA bison are up to 50% seropositive. Don't believe the "exposure" malarky to explain that. The antibodies are antigen driven - meaning there must be bacteria present in the animal's body to cause a positive blood test. A positive animal is NOT immune - quite the contrary!The brucella antibody half-life is about 3 weeks - meaning if the animal was able to fight off the disease (which a few do), they would be test negative very quickly. If they test positive, they are likely infected. Bison and elk swap the disease back and forth and it spills over into cattle when the populations get to record levels, as they were earlier this year. The incubation period is perfect for it to show up now. Learn about the disease before you try to take a stance. I'm a vet - been dealing with this for years. These outbreaks were predictable, when you know the epidemiology of the disease. Too bad all those on the chats don't take the time to learn before they express opinions.
Posted by Anonymous to Jim's Eclectic World at 6/19/08 8:16 PM __________________________________________________
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Well, this is an interesting "CYA" response, now that everyone knows Corrientes aren't the cause. Poor "Buffalo Allies of Bozeman" - another group who doesn't have a clue. How do you know bison didn't cause this? - the investigation isn't complete! Are you aware of the 1983 US Animal Health Association report showing free ranging bison infecting cattle with brucellosis? I doubt it. Do your research. Learn the real story. The GYA bison are up to 50% seropositive. Don't believe the "exposure" malarky to explain that. The antibodies are antigen driven - meaning there must be bacteria present in the animal's body to cause a positive blood test. A positive animal is NOT immune - quite the contrary!The brucella antibody half-life is about 3 weeks - meaning if the animal was able to fight off the disease (which a few do), they would be test negative very quickly. If they test positive, they are likely infected. Bison and elk swap the disease back and forth and it spills over into cattle when the populations get to record levels, as they were earlier this year. The incubation period is perfect for it to show up now. Learn about the disease before you try to take a stance. I'm a vet - been dealing with this for years. These outbreaks were predictable, when you know the epidemiology of the disease. Too bad all those on the chats don't take the time to learn before they express opinions.
Posted by Anonymous to Jim's Eclectic World at 6/19/08 8:16 PM __________________________________________________
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Sunday, June 1, 2008
[Jim's Eclectic World] New comment on A delightful trip into the park.
Mike McCord has left a new comment on your post "A delightful trip into the park":
First off, let me comment on why I "push away" all that "philosophy stuff" with a "wave of [my] hand." Ready? Here it goes . . . .
It's boring.
All that, "I think therefore I am," crap. Booooring. All I know about philosophy is that John Stuart Mill of his own free will on half a pint o' shanty was particularly ill.
Philosophy, like poetry, is for people with entirely too much time on their hands who like to paint the world in terms that just don't make sense to the vast majority of us. Of course, I'm not saying that to be insulting. I'm saying it because it's true.
Secondly, I wasn't trying to send you into a tizzy there, Jimmy. I was just trying to bond with you a bit by sharing a personal experience I had in the park last week. One in which I witnessed first hand some of the secondary effects of this past winter's culling.
I'm not completely heartless, despite what you may think. I thought some folks out there might be interested in knowing that this years efforts by the Montana DOL and the park service has resulted in an above average number buffalo calves being taken by bears and wolves this spring because the herds are so small and spread out. I mean, that part of it isn't exactly national news, now is it? In my own way, I was actually supporting your side of the argument.
The whole killing wolves and bears to protect buffalo comment was just me ribbing you. How do you not get that yet?
I know how you feel: Man vs. Nature is bad. Nature vs. Nature is okey-dokey. And that working to protect buffalo is just one part of the overall effort to fight the many, and varied, injustices throughout the world.
See? I get it.
Lighten up, will ya?
And one more thing: You said that we like to pretend that it's still about simple things. Well, let me tell you, my friend, life is what you make it. The world is a cruel, humorless bitch if you want it to be. Or it can be as pleasant as a warm, sunny Sunday afternoon.
For me, it is about the simple things. It's about family and friends. Tall tales around a campfire. Listening to wolf howls in the Lamar Valley after sunset. And beer.
Actually . . . it's mostly about beer.
TTFN
Posted by Mike McCord to Jim's Eclectic World at 6/1/08 3:56 PM __________________________________________________
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First off, let me comment on why I "push away" all that "philosophy stuff" with a "wave of [my] hand." Ready? Here it goes . . . .
It's boring.
All that, "I think therefore I am," crap. Booooring. All I know about philosophy is that John Stuart Mill of his own free will on half a pint o' shanty was particularly ill.
Philosophy, like poetry, is for people with entirely too much time on their hands who like to paint the world in terms that just don't make sense to the vast majority of us. Of course, I'm not saying that to be insulting. I'm saying it because it's true.
Secondly, I wasn't trying to send you into a tizzy there, Jimmy. I was just trying to bond with you a bit by sharing a personal experience I had in the park last week. One in which I witnessed first hand some of the secondary effects of this past winter's culling.
I'm not completely heartless, despite what you may think. I thought some folks out there might be interested in knowing that this years efforts by the Montana DOL and the park service has resulted in an above average number buffalo calves being taken by bears and wolves this spring because the herds are so small and spread out. I mean, that part of it isn't exactly national news, now is it? In my own way, I was actually supporting your side of the argument.
The whole killing wolves and bears to protect buffalo comment was just me ribbing you. How do you not get that yet?
I know how you feel: Man vs. Nature is bad. Nature vs. Nature is okey-dokey. And that working to protect buffalo is just one part of the overall effort to fight the many, and varied, injustices throughout the world.
See? I get it.
Lighten up, will ya?
And one more thing: You said that we like to pretend that it's still about simple things. Well, let me tell you, my friend, life is what you make it. The world is a cruel, humorless bitch if you want it to be. Or it can be as pleasant as a warm, sunny Sunday afternoon.
For me, it is about the simple things. It's about family and friends. Tall tales around a campfire. Listening to wolf howls in the Lamar Valley after sunset. And beer.
Actually . . . it's mostly about beer.
TTFN
Posted by Mike McCord to Jim's Eclectic World at 6/1/08 3:56 PM __________________________________________________
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